Why the Rune makes less power and torque than the wing??

[ELP_JC]

Does anybody have the HP and TQ numbers? A graph? How about REDLINE? Is it the same 6K as the wing?

One of the bike magazines recently made the comment the rune (cruiser of the year) makes LESS power and torque than the wing :? , but didn't give numbers. It's surprising due to the fact the Rune is a hair lighter than the Wing, has much less GVWR due to being a solo bike, AND has 6 individual TBs vs the Wing's 2 (this usually means higher HP). both Wing and Rune meet 2008 emissions, so that's not the reason.
Just curious if somebody has the skinny on this issue.

[RuneSpyder]

I think the main reason had to due with noise contraints and the design of the exhaust...

[LOV2KRZ]

I called Honda and they told me that the rev limiter kicks in at 6k rpm, same as the Wing. I think red line is actually a little higher then the 6k rpm, I think I read somewhere its about 6400 rpm.

[KenCrawleySC]

That makes me want to get a long drill bit and "open up" the exhaust (plus the K&N filter adaptor). Yes yes, I know.... finely tuned machine working in concert yadda yadda. More like mistuned for noise and smoke concerns. My Harley buddy sez he thinks my Rune is getting louder and louder the more I drive it. But I havnt seen any chunks blowing out the pipes yet. I can dream.

[ELP_JC]

I guess it has to be exhaust design, possibly shorter chambers. Somebody mentioned the Rune had slightly deeper and louder exhaust than the wing, meaning it must be freer flowing. It only makes sense on a kicka$$ cruiser.
About the rev limiter, thanks Lov2krz. But if it kicks in at 6K rpm, the 'redline' (if it had a tach) must be at or below that. The Wing had 6K redline, and the limiter kicked in at 6,200, so the Rune must have slightly different cams (what else?). Six grand is perfectly fine for a cruiser with so much torque.
The final performance equation is gearing, which was pretty low on the wing already (high rpms while cruising), so I hope it's lower or at least the same.
Thanks for your input gentlemen.

[LOV2KRZ]

The rev limiter is an engine safety feature and is designed to kill the fuel injectors before red line is reached to save the engine from over spinning. It doesn't make sense to have the engine rev limit set higher than red line.

As for the gearing you are correct, the Rune is geared differently then the wing but not by much. Also they do not share the same cam shaft.

[Lamonster]

The rev limiter is an engine safety feature and is designed to kill the fuel injectors before red line is reached to save the engine from over spinning. It doesn't make sense to have the engine rev limit set higher than red line.

As for the gearing you are correct, the Rune is geared differently then the wing but not by much. Also they do not share the same cam shaft.

There is a pretty big safety factor built in there. On the stock Valkyrie they cut off at 7250 rpm and we run our blown Valks well over 8000 rpm. My buddy than ran his Valk at Bonneville held 8600 rpm for over two miles without any ill affect to the motor.
If you are going to have problems with high revs it is usually related to floating valves.

[Madroober]

ELP_JC For what I know about building efficient HP in cars Bigger isn't always better.
For example putting a large cam and say a lage 800cfm carb on a street 350ci engine compared to a more suttle camshaft and a 600cfm carb the smaller setup will perform with better response and power and have a more usable power range than the larger setup.
Buy using a smaller carb there is an increase in air fuel velocity that helps a More efficient fuel mixture and burn resulting in better response toque and usable HP.
The larger setup with the proper heads might make good HP in the upper RPM but require lower gearing and have much lower HP in the bottom and mid RPMs.
What I have learned about motorcycles the air boxes are quite restricted so even though the Rune has six throttle body's the intake opening in the air box might only be (36 mm for example)
So its like trying to breath through a straw.
There is a good amount of usable Hp to be gained buy just letting more air into the engine of most motorcycles buy just letting more air through the airbox.
Same goes with the exhaust they work hand and hand let more air and fuel in need to let more out.
All that being said It's my guess the Rune has very good potential for usable HP/torque using its six throttle body's buy just letting more air in trough the air box.
If someone was looking for large HP buy changing cams and eliminating the rev limiter it will come at a price of less HP/Torque lower RPM (where cruisers need the power).
Sorry for the long post hope this helps.

Todd

[ELP_JC]

Nothing to feel sorry about Todd; engine talk fascinates all of us, I think.
What you said makes sense, and I'm sure Honda went to the extra expense of separate TBs for a reason. I'd like to know what changes were made on the wing engine. And also would love to see the power/TQ curves of both the wing and rune. I could almost guess there's no need to spin the Rune beyond 5K rpm, but there's no tach :cry: . I was very pleased with the wing's performance and power characteristics, so I know I'll be happy with the Rune as well.
Finally, when I heard about a mega-buck cruiser based on the wing, I was hoping for a DOHC flat-6 engine, but my wishes proved wrong; probably too hard to package. Such an mini-porsche engine like that would easily spin to 8K rpm and make quite a bit more power and torque than now, giving the V-Rod a run for its money.
Take it easy guys.

[KenCrawleySC]

How come the 6 little exhaust holes in the mufflers are smaller than the 6 throttle body throats? I live in south carolina. here, we dont need no stinkin' smog stuff. :x

[Cliff Pica]

Somewhere around the house I have a copy of Cruiser Magazine. The article stated Honda engineers were unhappy with the noise levels from the shorter exhausts (less volume to control noise). To keep the peace with management they(engineers) detuned the engine above 5720 rpm. If you look at the HP and Torque curves you can see a definite flat line starting at 5720 rpm. According to their chart(cruiser) the engine red lined at 6200 rpm. I hope someone from Dyna or other performance after market provider see's that article and fixes Honda's fix.

Cliff :D

PS. I rode in Rolling Thunder last weekend here in DC (DC Police guessed 525 Thousand People). I was surprised not to see another Rune out there. The crowds were very appreciative, several jumped the barriers and ran up to talk about the bike.
The spouse (Gold Wing) told me she overheard someone in the crowd tell a buddy "that's one of those new $60,000.00 Honda's".

[Madroober]

How come the 6 little exhaust holes in the mufflers are smaller than the 6 throttle body throats? I live in south carolina. here, we dont need no stinkin' smog stuff. :x

Hi KenCrawleySC If you look inside any combustion chamber the intake valve or valves will always be bigger than the exhaust.
The intake requires more valve to help maximize the atomization of the fuel with the air into the cylinder to create a fast/even complete burn.
On the exhaust side the goal is to let the burnt fuel out as fast as posable that is where a good exhaust header/system comes in play.
With a good header the pipe diameter and tube length coming from each cylinder will flow to were they meet called a collector the flow of one cylinders exhaust will actually pull the next called scavenging witch improves efficacy.
If the tubes are too big uneven laughs or out of sequence with the next on the firing order it will affect the total efficiency of the exhaust witch is a direct reflection on performance.
An engine with say very large pipes little back pressure will have a performance loss compared to the same engine with a good tuned exhaust.
I agree the stock exhaust holes are very small and Honda made it with EPA requirements to meet I would guess there is room for improvement but it would take a little testing to get it working right or all you will get is noise.
Hope this helps.
Todd

[Little Jon]

I called Honda and they told me that the rev limiter kicks in at 6k rpm, same as the Wing. I think red line is actually a little higher then the 6k rpm, I think I read somewhere its about 6400 rpm.

It must be nice to get info from Honda.
I have contacted several times and get the run around All I wanted to know is what is the top speed Cut out is set to. Also is there any difference between the 4 ECM modules,On the top end.
I get, We cannot give out that information.
Thanks Alot HONDA. There support is getting as bad as Harley, as far back as 1973. That was the last HARLEY I owned..Sorry got OFF the subject Little Jon

[ELP_JC]

Jon, there's no speed limiter on bikes, with the possible exception of the Hayabusa and ZX12R, because manufacturers adhered to a 'gentleman's' limit of 186 mph to avoid government intervention.

Having said that, top speed on all other bikes is either REV LIMITED or DRAG LIMITED. Many bikes reach their top speeds in 2nd to last gear, leaving top gear for relaxed cruising. The exception are sportbikes, which due to their high top speeds (160+), are geared to reach their drag-limited top speed near redline (optimum point). That leaves room for the shortest possible gearing, and maximum acceleration.
The Wing and Rune are geared that way too, but due to their much lower top speed, both are high-winded on the highway. That's the opposite you expect from a torque monster motor; they really need a 6th gear IMO.
Anyway, the rune should run out of steam before hitting the rev limiter, but not by much. I read the Rune's limiter hits at 6,000, which happens to be the Wing's redline (My Wing cut off at 6,100 rpm).

But hey, don't sweat it. Manufacturers always overestimate top speed and acceleration numbers, and underestimate weight. And magazines abuse machines like no owner would, plus they correct numbers to 'ideal' conditions you'll never see, so I don't trust neither. Only number I trust is magazine's wet weight (fully fueled), because it's done on a calibrated scale. Honda lists the Rune's weight as 790 I believe (no fluids of any kind, no battery, no tools; who the hell rides like that?), when the monster weighs 894 lbs. fully fueled (4 less than the Wing). Go figure.

Bottom line is, just like Rolls Royce used to say, performance of the Rune is ENOUGH.

[Rich Oas]

Any of you Rune Riders that have had your Rune on a Dyno care to share the Horespower? I hear a lot of dancing around about increasing HP and Torque.. but nowhere on these boards do I finfd the statement.."My Rune dyno'd at ??? HP.... I just want to know what HP I'm running on my stock Rune... I've heard everything from 90 to 130 in various reviews.... My guess would be 100 - 110... Am I being generous or conservative?

[Adrian]

Does anybody have the HP and TQ numbers? A graph? How about REDLINE? Is it the same 6K as the wing?

One of the bike magazines recently made the comment the rune (cruiser of the year) makes LESS power and torque than the wing :? , but didn't give numbers. It's surprising due to the fact the Rune is a hair lighter than the Wing, has much less GVWR due to being a solo bike, AND has 6 individual TBs vs the Wing's 2 (this usually means higher HP). both Wing and Rune meet 2008 emissions, so that's not the reason.
Just curious if somebody has the skinny on this issue.

I don't know where you get the Gold Wing has more power than the Rune. Look at this test and see where the Rune ran the 1/4 at 12.42 and the Wing ran a 12.82. They are almost the same weight (less that 10 pounds difference). I have a 04 wing and a Rune and the Rune will wax the Gold Wing.
The Wing can run Regular unleaded and the Rune needs 91 octane.

Adrian


http://www.motorcyclecruiser.com/roadtests/runetest/index.html

[ELP_JC]

Adrian, you're wrong on the 1/4 difference; here's the quote from the test you linked:

"At the dragstrip the hefty 888-pound (when fuel laden) Rune outdid the Gold Wing (which weighs -- yikes -- only 10 pounds more) by a 10th of a second with 12.42 at 107.23 mph, and it actually gets spanked by its (somewhat) wispier relation, the VTX 1800C, which scored an impressive 12.21 at 107.48 mph"

That means the Wing clocked 12.52 with them. The reason it's barely quicker than the Wing is for its lower gearing (check Honda's website), not due to more power. I had an '01 Wing too, and it had enough power for me, so the Rune won't be a problem (lack of power is not an issue with me).

I read about the lower power in either Motor Cyclist or Cycle World (don't recall the numbers, but were pretty close). My question still is: Why all the 'hot rodding' (individual TBs, hotter cams, premium fuel, etc) for either the same or lower power? Just doesn't make sense, especially coming from 'performance first' Honda.

It'd be nice to see back to back power curves from both machines, on the same dyno. I'm more interested in torque curves than power peaks, by the way (which were not discussed on any tests).

Hope everybody enjoyed their weekend.

[KenCrawleySC]

http://ken.crawley.org/94HP-Rune.JPG



http://ken.crawley.org/103FtLbTorque-Rune.JPG

[Adrian]

Adrian, you're wrong on the 1/4 difference; here's the quote from the test you linked:

"At the dragstrip the hefty 888-pound (when fuel laden) Rune outdid the Gold Wing (which weighs -- yikes -- only 10 pounds more) by a 10th of a second with 12.42 at 107.23 mph, and it actually gets spanked by its (somewhat) wispier relation, the VTX 1800C, which scored an impressive 12.21 at 107.48 mph"

That means the Wing clocked 12.52 with them. The reason it's barely quicker than the Wing is for its lower gearing (check Honda's website), not due to more power. I had an '01 Wing too, and it had enough power for me, so the Rune won't be a problem (lack of power is not an issue with me).

I read about the lower power in either Motor Cyclist or Cycle World (don't recall the numbers, but were pretty close). My question still is: Why all the 'hot rodding' (individual TBs, hotter cams, premium fuel, etc) for either the same or lower power? Just doesn't make sense, especially coming from 'performance first' Honda.

It'd be nice to see back to back power curves from both machines, on the same dyno. I'm more interested in torque curves than power peaks, by the way (which were not discussed on any tests).

Hope everybody enjoyed their weekend.

JC
Not much of a question about the Rune getting beat at the drags by the VTX (or many other Bikes) but I was only comparing the Rune to the Gold Wing as best as I could with what I had to work with. You and I know that there are a bunch of Bikes that will spank the Rune big time.
I took my Rune over to the local Chopper dealer this last week, after he looked it over he said "That is the first Jap bike I have every really liked and it is beautiful". He would hardly believe it was a production bike.

Adrian

[rune 33]

hi guys
I heard you say the Rune will run out of steam before the rev eliminator
kicks in. I got news for you my blue rune shuts down at 215 km /hr
and still wants more but won't go. the motor sounds like its just idling.
when the warranty is over I'm in for some serious mods. k&n exhaust and maybe by then a power chip
bill

[KenCrawleySC]

You can see why the Rune runs out of steam before the rev limiter kicks in: max HP is developed at 110 MPH, then it is downhill from there. That explaines to me why it takes longer after I hit 120 to get to 130. That Dyno chart is with the air filter mod (K&N filter, no Honda airbox)

[Spondonash]

You are being generous, around the low 90's is normal for a stock bike.

Any of you Rune Riders that have had your Rune on a Dyno care to share the Horespower? I hear a lot of dancing around about increasing HP and Torque.. but nowhere on these boards do I finfd the statement.."My Rune dyno'd at ??? HP.... I just want to know what HP I'm running on my stock Rune... I've heard everything from 90 to 130 in various reviews.... My guess would be 100 - 110... Am I being generous or conservative?

[hannibal]

Hi bros,

no much interest to know exact hp and torque :lol:

for italian roads j may tell you: "came and ride the Rune on our roads"
:D .

this bike is perfect , j may not understand why Honda decided not to import in europe

hp and torque are enought, more would be dangerous.

ciao
hannibal

[pshivers]

Just a lowly Goldwing 1800 owner here! :)

I was searching for the firing order for the GL1800 engine when I ran across this thread about slightly lower horsepower on the Rune compared to the Goldwing 1800.

From http://www.cmgonline.com/articles/CMG03 ... onda/Rune/ (http://www.cmgonline.com/articles/CMG03/bikes/Honda/Rune/)

The twin shorty exhausts of the T2 presented dilemmas in getting proper volume of airflow for the required performance, while still meeting environmental and groovy sound requirements. Initially however, when functional and pollution requirements were satisfied, the sound wasn’t desirable.

Several methods of firing order changes were tried, but the final solution came by crossing over two pipes under the engine between the two banks. It came at the expense of some horsepower but since they felt they had plenty anyhow it was worth it to get ‘the sound’.

Don't know how accurate that statement is but something to look at...

BTW, still haven't found the firing order... Wanted to compare it to the Porsche 911 SC...( 1-6-2-4-3-5). Guess I'll have to crack open the manual when I get home.

[David]

hi guys
I heard you say the Rune will run out of steam before the rev eliminator
kicks in. I got news for you my blue rune shuts down at 215 km /hr
and still wants more but won't go. the motor sounds like its just idling.
when the warranty is over I'm in for some serious mods. k&n exhaust and maybe by then a power chip
bill

Let us know when you locate that power chip...

[ReconRune]

It must be nice to get info from Honda.
I have contacted several times and get the run around All I wanted to know is what is the top speed Cut out is set to.


I personally hit the electronic governor at 137 miles per hour... I was chasing a GSXR1000 that hit 170.... Had plenty of throttle and heart left...

[LOV2KRZ]

To throw in my 2 cents, you can go as fast as you want as long as you don't hit the rev limiter, which is set at about 6100rpm, which governs engine speed not road speed. there is some math about gear ratio's and wheel size that i don't understand but if there was a 6th gear or significantly change the tire size I'm pretty certain that the Rune would do an easy 150mph

[Projekt]

The following link provides an article in the form of a pdf file that displays a dyno graph charting 112lb/ft at approximately 3000 rpm and 97.4 Hp just above that max torque rpm.



http://www.mcnews.com/mcn/model_eval/Model_Evaluation10031.pdf

[KenCrawleySC]

The horsepower and torque are very close to what I had measured when I dynoed my Rune

Ken (35,050 miles)